Jerry: I was like, look, let's just take a break. It was very clear that she just wanted to not have to worry about, like, me because she needed to worry about herself. And I feel like from that moment, maybe not, like, instantly, but very soon, the tone of everything shifted so much to this, like, kind of bittersweet moment where it was like some of the best weeks and months of our relationship came towards that end period.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the very first episode of our second season of, Polycurious. I am Fernanda, your host, and today Mariah uh, my co-host and I are chatting with Cookie and Jerry. I am so thankful that they wanted to come on the podcast because they're actually currently on a break and will go more into detail about what that actually means for them. But even though they aren't officially together anymore, they still wanted to talk very openly about what they are going through. Before they decided to go on a break, they had been together for over three and a half years. They lived together and were somewhat open for most of their relationship. In this conversation, we talk about how they initially approached their relationship, wanting to date other people and how they realized that they wanted to be a couple and have experiences together. They then went on this journey in which they were communicating and experimenting a lot. But at some point in that process, Cookie realized that she didn't want to be open anymore, but she didn't really know how to communicate that. I like to say that they didn't go on a break because of non-monogamy although of course that was a factor. But everything kind of culminated when Cookie decided that she needed space and she wanted to move out. They're still seeing each other, but they're also both exploring independently. And what's interesting is that now that they don't have to be accountable for each other, they're actually more united and more in love than ever. And we'll talk about how and why this break and separation has been so good for them. I think overall, this conversation highlights how communication has to be, a continuous effort no matter how long you have been together. Things change all the time and you have to do what's right for you, even if it's different from what worked in the past or what works for your partner. One last note before we start. In this conversation, Cookie and Jerry talk about going to therapy with Tarynn which is actually someone who was a guest in the first season of Polycurious. So if you want to check out that episode, it is episode eight. Tarynn Um is a, New York based psychotherapist that focuses on alternative sexualities and lifestyles, including non-monogamy. And she is offering to Polycurious listeners for the month of March a, 30% discount on her sessions. So if you are interested in doing a session with her either in person or online, you can go to her website which is linked in the show notes. Okay, without further ado, here's our interview with Cookie and Jerry.

Jerry and Cookie, welcome to Polycurious I've been looking forward to this interview so much and I'm so happy to be sitting down with you both. you both are dear friends and I have so many questions for you. So I can't wait to dive in.

Mariah: Yes, thank you so much for being here and for sharing your story with us.

Cookie: Thanks for having us.

J: Absolutely. I think we've been looking forward to this for a while. you guys are really great friends and I think what you're doing is a really good service to people in this community and people who aren't who like us, have been navigating a lot of spaces and having a lot of questions. So, yeah, we're very excited.

C: Yeah.

F: Awesome, well, if you guys just want to start by introducing yourselves in whatever way you feel comfortable.

C: yeah. So I'm Cookie. Today. I am a young 20 something that has been living in New York for almost a decade. Consider myself a creative person. I love music, I love people, love dancing. I love cooking. Yeah, people person.

M: Cookie who cooks.

C: Yeah, Cookie who cooks.

J: And I am Jerry. I am 36 years young. also coming up on 10 years of Living in New York, kind of on and off. I have been working in software'in grad school. This, last time in New York. I'been back for about six years.

F: Great.

F: And when in that time frame did you guys meet?

C: We met in December 2017 at a bar in Brooklyn. And I had been working on a pop up shop, that I had just debuted that day and finally had some time to celebrate. So I wanted to go out dancing. I went out with my coworker. I, was on the dance floor and Matt, Jerry and his girlfriend at the time and some friends and we all just kind of clicked, invited them to my pop up. They did not show up because we were out very late that night. but yeah, so, yeah, just out, out a bar, you know, in real life.

J: Old fashioned.

C: Old fashioned, yeah.

J: And just thinking back to it, my ex and I were coming from another concert. I actually remember seeing Cookie at the bar first. But she was with someone else. And that kind of made me feel safe because I was like, oh, I'm in a relationship. I don't want to talk to an attractive girl and, like, give off a vibe. So it was very safe. We connected, right? We made eye contact. She was. There was just no bullshit. So at the time, I had just moved back to New York, and, my ex had just started working nights as a nurse. a lot of my friends from years before were in really different phases of their lives. And I was trying to navigate, like, well, I want more friends, like, in this space. And actually the encouragement of my ex. She was like, well, you know, I wouldn't normally say this, but she seemed like a nice person. why don't she, like, reach out to her some of those other people? I was sort of on transitioning out of the relationship. it wasn't explicitly clear, but before Cookie and I were romantically involved, that relationship did end. It was kind of like a several months process. She, had moved out before we started hanging out again. And I think it kind of took both of us by surprise when we did initially romantically connect.

C: Yeah, I remember we had hung out a couple times already, having drinks at bars, and we had gotten dinner, at a ramen place somewhere in Williamsburg. And then I was like, oh, well, he seems like a great friend. Like, this would be a great friendship. And then the more that we would hang out, I was like, oh, dang, I really kind of like him, but he'a girlfriend, so that's not gonna happen. And then I remember we had gotten this dinner and you had mentioned that you guys were breaking up, and I justember my body being.

F: And you were like, was, oh, my God.

C: I was like, maybe I have a chance. And, of course I was like, I'm so sorry that you're going through that. That sucks. but inside I was like, oh, my gosh, maybe there's a chance. And, I do remember being kind of excited. and so from there, we kind of, like, took things in a different direction, I'd say.

J: Yeah, I think that an important point was the dinner we had, when I had shared the elevator pitched version of why the relationship is ending. And I kind of just went with, well, what was the last thing? And it was a conversation about being open. Because in my last relationship, that had always been a conversation throughout with my ex. Yeah, at that point, when I brought it up, I think that was really kind of triggering. And my ex was like, no, I know, we had talked about that, but I don't want that anymore. And I was like, well, I kind of do to at least try. So when we had dinner and she was like, well, what happened? That was kind of what I brought up. But it was also very intentional to be like, hey, if we do cross that path, I want you to know from the start that this is something.

F: Like that that I want, but my girlfriend does.

C: Right.

J: And so I didn't want to send anyone any mixed signals. Right. Becausee I think I have that sensitivity too, of wanted to be very clear about what I wanted at that point.

C: Yeah, no, I remember you brought that up at the dinner and you were like, you know, I've always been interested in being in an open relationship. And I was like, I think me too. I hadn't really formally talked about it before with anyone, at that point about whatever label that was. I mean, I was pretty young when we met. but the previous two relationships that I had been in, I was unfaithful to both of them. And I was confused as to why because they were really great people and I still loved them. And I was like, oh, maybe this is something that I want to explore because I keep doing this thing. Maybe this is for me. We had both shared, you know, past stories about being unfaithful and how that, you know, it had nothing to do with our partners. And, I hadn't really had anyone in my life that you talked about this. He had brought it up and I was like, oh, he kind of opened the door to this world for me that I think I was interested in. I remember we had gone to a talk at, Hacienda with Dr. Zhana

F: Oh yeah. Who was in the podcast. and Hacienda is like a sex positive community. they live together, they drove parties, etcetera they, you talks, workshops, things like that. Yeah.

C: So we went to a talk together. Cause he had brought it up and was like, do you wanna come? And I was like, yeah, I'm interested.

F: After you started being romantic.

J: Yes.

C: Yeah, yeah we were talking about, you know, that was something that we were both interested in. I mean, especially, you know, with him and his breakup and not being kind of part of the story that he had told me too.

F: And what was it the talk about?

J: Like how to find your type of non-monogamy.

F: Yeah. Which is also what the episode we had with her, episode two, first season, if you guys want to check it out. Yeah. She's so great.

C: She's really, really Amazing. yeah, I learned a lot during that. Like, I think it was like an hour, an hour and a half learn here. I was just kind of like the first beginning to many other lessons.

J: And as a quick aside, like, you know, we are 10 years apart in age. Like, my introduction to non-monogamy began almost a decade before. We kind of started by saying, just like talking about the other people that we were dating, even though we weren't exclusive and hadn't gotten to that point, just to like, try it on and like get familiar with that discomfort. Right. Because I think discomfort is an opportunity for growth. And you know, I always want a relationship to be about growing together or growing as an individual.

F: But this was your first experience doing that, right? Even though you had been introduced to it just by being in New York or.

J: No, so I had been introduced to it. So, I mean, in a lot of different ways. Basically, I had a really toxic relationship in college. It ended in a really bad way. And I kind of came out of that realizing, like, because of jealousy and possession and like, my reaction to those things, like, that was something I needed to change. So one of the first casual relationships I got into right after college was with someone who was very explicitly like, seeing other people. And I realized like, how uncomfortable that made me feel. And I was like, well, this is an opportunity for growth, kind of like exposure therapy. And through seeing her, I, I got more comfortable with my relationship with possession and jealousy. And I was just like, oh, this is okay. This is like a physical reaction that I'm responding to out of a habitual, like, thought pattern. Right. And it helped me kind of move away from that. and then I was in a long term relationship in my 20s that we had always kind of like, flirt with the idea, but we never got to that point. And when that relationship ended, I had a roommate who was poly. And she kind of like, helped me get my first exposure to that community where she invited people to stay with us and we played and like, did a lot of things and I talked to a lot of people and that was like my first exposure. And so from that point, it became something that I was like, this is something I want to try. Like, it feels like it aligns with who I am and how I connect with people and my values. But like, I'd always envisioned it being something that, you know, you would start in kind of like a more monogamous point and sort of work together to build up. But when we started, we kind of worked in the opposite direction and I think that over time worked back to that point where we're like, we're committed and like, let's build off of that. But it was like a non traditional path, I think.

M: Yeah, that resonates a lot with me because that was kind of how my last relationship started. Basically. We met each other and we were like, okay, well you. Let's keep dating other people, but I really enjoy your company and let's keep talking. And through that. When we did get into a relationship, it was naturally non-monogamous. And then we kind of decided to go through our honeymoon phase and kind of close up in that way and just enjoy that phase. But it was always this idea of non-monogamy from the beginning. So it kind of made that transition easier into having those exploratory conversations early upn, when you're still exploring each other and learning about each other. So I think that's really great that you had that experience. it can go either way.

C: Yeah. I was kind of baked in from the start, I'd say.

F: And how did you go from that initial openness to closing back up for a while? Sounds like.

C: I actually remember I had gotten invited to go to Daybreaker and I was like, party?

F: That's at 6:30.

C: Yeah. In the morning. No, Dr. Sober party. Go to yoga for an hour and then dance for you two and a half hours before you go to work at 9:00 o'and. so I had sent him the link. We were actually like working, you know, like two feet apart, but we were on calls or whatever. So I messaged him and after he got off of his call, he didn't look as excited as I thought when I sent the link. And I was like, oh. And he was like, so I'm seeing this other woman and I am going with her there. And I was like, oh. I was like, that's totally fine. Because I mean, we weren't at that point in an exclusive relationship. I.

F: How long had you been waiting?

J: Like a month.

C: Yeah. So I was like, oh, okay, I'll see you there. No worries. but I do remember being like, oh, I want to go with him. and it wasn un tcomfortable, but I wasn't gonna be upset about it in an external way. Something that I dealt with. Then it was fine. I got over it.

F: And how was it when you were there? Did you feel jealousy towards this other woman that he had brought?

C: We barely met. I was definitely, when we were dancing, you know, kind of looking back and looking for him and I definitely checked her out and I was like, oh, okay. I'm not, like, as threatened, actually, after seeing her too. And not in a way that was like, she wasn't beautiful or anything. I was just like, it's almost easier when you see it. And instead of not, because then you make all these assumptions in your head. There was this one moment that the DJ or the host was like, go hug someone. And he came over and hugged me. And that was the only point that we really saw each other during the whole event. and that was really sweet of him to come over and hug me for that moment. And, yeah, I feel like I didn't even really meet her.

J: I mean, Cookie is a very tall, beautiful woman. It'very hard to not see in a public space. I saw her and that was a very eye opening experience for me where I realized in seeing her and being there with this other person that I kind of wanted to be with her instead. And that was like a turning point for me in terms of how I acted and how I communicated to you. In both cases. Right. With Cookie and this other woman, I was communicating with both of them about what was happening. So I felt like I was now having a first experience of, like, even though these are uncommitted relationships, like, I'm being open about it. And then after that experience where we were all in the same space, I wound up telling this other person, hey, I know, you've never pressured me to do more than just casually hang out, but I don't feel like at this point I am serving myself by, like, seeing both of you when really I think I want to spend more time with Cookie.

M: Yeah. And this is kind of when you both decided to kind of close up your relationship. Was that kind of, the turning factor in that?

J: It was the start of it.

C: It was the start of it.

J: So we had been seeing each other then for like, a couple months, but it wasn't really until after. I think two big things, and I might be wrong about this, but. So one was we had gone to a music festival in California with like, a bunch of her friends, which was really exciting because I'm like, oh, like, how am I going to fit into this? And the other was we had gone to a play party, and sort of had that experience of like, what's this? Like, like, and in the intervening period, like, we had played with friends and done a lot of these, like, trial and error sorts of things.

F: Like, like, you had played together with friends.

J: We played together with friends. We were continuing to like, hook up with other people. But it was very clear. I, think for both of us, that is, like, this was the person I was paying the most attention to. I remember she came over to my sister's place, and I was watching my nieces. You know, we took my dog for a walk. And it was the first time that I had kind of, like, an uncomfortable conversation with Cookie where it was like, well, like. And I think we both noticed that stammering of communication. And I was like, yeah, you know, I know we said that we wanted to be open and try these things, and we've definitely been signaling to each other that we're, like, very open and very confident with that. But I was like, but I kind of want to just, like, have a normal dating. Like, what is normal to us? Right. Not normal as in there's only one way to have a relationship. But, like, what we were familiar with. Like, let's try this. Moving back to square one and being, like, just a couple.

C: And at that point, we had expressed that we. We're still interested in being open and seeing other people, but doing it together.

J: Yeah. Let's just, like, remove all those other things for a moment and be like Jerry and Cookie.

F: How was the play party experience?

C: It was really fun. We started out at going to an event at the Museum of Sex Oing. and we had gone out.

J: It was like a mixer.

C: Yeah. And we had gone out with. I think it was, in total, including us, like, seven people. So it was like three couples and then one guy. And then we had started at the Museum of Sex, got know, a little, know, tipsy, a little drinky drink, and, got all flirty with each other. And then we ended up going back to his place and then kind of like, exploring that all together. And it was really fun. I remember.

F: So it was like a group sixt with, like, seven people.

J: Yeah.

C: And I remember, like, he was lying down and this other woman was on top of him, and I was, like, looking at him on all fours, and this other guy was behind me, and we, like, locked eyes, and it was just like, we laughed and we were like, this is funny. They were doing this. And it was fun. I had a great time.

J: Yeah, it was fun. But it was also, like, triggering in a way. Right. Seeing someone you care about for the first time, like, that was, for me, not the most naturally comfortable thing, like, all of those things that you're attached to. Right. But then it was also, like, it's very hard to focus on that while this is happening with Somebody else. And so, like, that was kind of a growth experience where we'like yeah, cool. Like this is a fun first thing to do.

C: And like, you know, when we locked eyes at that one point when we were fucking other people, I had simultaneously, you felt good and bad. You know, they coexisted together where I was like, yeah, maybe I want to be that person that's on top of him. Sure. But we're doing this and it's kind of cool that we're like, uncomfortable together. it was almost like a bonding experience to me. And we did unpack afterwards and talked about it. And we had talked about how it was hard seeing each other with other people, but at the same time, like, how proud we were of ourselves for, like, doing it and like, trying it out and like, actually, you know, putting our money where our mouth is kind of thing. But yeah, it's like you can simultaneously, like, feel good about it and then also feel uncomfortable.

J: Yeah.

F: I'm curious if you had any like, pre conversations before those experiences.

C: Yeah, that was always our kind of motto before doing anything. Like before going to a party that we knew there might be some of these sexy people, sexy friends. Like, it was. We always had conversations before, like, what are we doing? Are we making out with other people? Like, what's allowed? We would have those conversations and what do we feel comfortable with?

F: And if you don't mind sharing or even remember what was what you were comfortable and uncomfortable with.

J: I think what you're talking about was more of like, when we go out, whether it's to a play space or not, because we're in this very sexy, sexually driven community. It's like, do we want to be cruising tonight? And we need to have that conversation before we take any drugs or alcohol before we go out.

M: What is cruising like?

J: Looking for?

C: Looking for.

J: Are we flirting? Are we hooking up? Like, might we want to take someone home with us tonight? Or do we just want to go out and not have that pressure? You know, because it's like, however good we were'communicating it's like still then shifts the dynamic of your evening when you see your partner surrounded by sexy people and you're like, oh, wait, like, I feel a bit competitive and maybe I don't know that's what I'm feeling. But then it changes the course of your night.

F: We expectations are important. Yeah.

C: So always saying, like, okay, tonight we're going out, just us, we're gona have fun, so we don't have to, like, you know, we're not going to be surprised or on the flip side, like, no, tonight, like, if we meet someone that we're interested in, like, it's allowed if you want to go and like, make out with them. and then if you want to do something more. And since we were doing things together, it was also like a conversation that we would continue to have throughout the night, depending on who we met, how much we wanted to do with, them. Like, you know, it's one point to say, hey, tonight, like, if we meet someone, we'll make out with them. But like, what if we want to take them home? Then we would have another conversation about that.

F: Yeah.

M: And I think that it's important to remember when you're in those scenarios that you're having these conversations throughout the night. Cause things do change. One person might feel one way and the other person feels another way. And. And people, I just want listeners to know that it's okay to really say what it is that you need in that moment. And saying no is okay. And I'm actually not comfortable with that right now. and that doesn't mean that it's no forever. It's just like in that moment.

C: Yeah.

F: And it can change. You might have thought you were gonna be comfortable with it, and then you are there and you're not comfortable with it. And it's so. I don't know if you had any moments like that.

C: Like the idea of consent. Right. It's like, just because you say yes right now doesn't mean that yes can change into a no and continue having those conversations. We are consenting to going out and being okay with each other, meeting other people. But that conversation might have to come up again to make sure that we're still on the same page.

J: And that was a huge lesson. both just from having those conversations and also from, I think mistakes that were made throughout this relationship is like, consent is revocable. But when you're like, form these patterns of behavior and communication with a partner, you know, it becomes so implicit. You're like, we don't have to go through the practice and like the ritual of like, do you consent to this like you would at, ah, a play party with a brand new person where you're like, oh, I should be.

F: You kind of know what the other person is comfortable.

J: And until you realize that you don't. You know, until you realize, like, wait, maybe I should be as explicit with this person who is almost a mirror to the things that I'm starting to feel more confident about and like, I'm doing really well. But then you realize maybe that's not the case.

C: Yeah.

M: And that's actually a really good point too, because it can get to a point where if you are assuming that I know what their yeses are and I don't necessarily need to ask every time because I'm so close to this person, the other person could be just trying to accommodate for you. You. And not speaking up because. Yeah, it was a yes before. And, you know, I have agreed to this before. And you do know me. So, like, I'm justnna kind of hang back and accommodate when in reality, like, no, I would actually like to kind of speak up and this isn't comfortable in this moment.

F: Yeah. Can you tell us about that moment?

J: I mean, maybe, like, Love Burn is a good example. 2020.

F: Yeah. So love Burn. I love how we bring up both events. I'm sure people are taking notes. Oh, I gotta go to day break care. I feel Lincoln Love Burn yeah. Love Burn is a regional Burning Man that happens in Miami. It actually just happened a week ago. And all of us were there. The four of us right here were there. But this was back in 2020.

C: Yeah.

F: So the loveurn right before the pandemic, whiches, yeah, I also went to.

C: We were all. We were all there, but I didn't.

F: Even know you guys.

C: Is crazy? yeah. So that Love Burn he had connected with someone there. And there was one night, you know, that they had gotten really cuddly and close, and I was kind of on my own journey. And, there was a moment where he had come up to me and was like, I'm really interested in sleeping with her. And at that point, we were still doing things together. So he was asking, obviously if I wanted to. And I was like, no, I don't feel like I'm in the right headspace, and I'm not interested in that right now. And he was like, but I really want to. And it was the first time that I had said no, and I had to say it again. And that was something that really bothered me because I feel like I had set a boundary. And, he was kind of pushing it.

J: It was a big learning lesson because for me, that was a clear violation of your boundaries. And like, an example where I think, like, no consent, like, you don't have to push it. Like, when you say no, no is no. And I think I was like, yeah, I was really excited in this environment, just like. And a lot of others, like, you know, these communities. We've talked about bigger things, like Burning Man or the first time we had went, it was. We did a lot of things. Like, we said yes to a lot of things. And when I initially had brought this up, you were like, yeah, I'm interested in that, maybe. And so for me, there was this just other experience with this person that was, like, very new and very easy to get lost in. But we were still navigating the confines of, like, this boundary we had set, and I pushed it too far. and I think that was, like, a big inflection point in our relationship where, you know, looking back in the way that we've talked about it, I think you started to realize, like, maybe this isn't something that is serving me, but we did not really communicate about that at that point.

C: Yeah. And I think also even before that moment at Love Burn, this was both of our pretty much first times, like, really trying to be in an open relationship. And that comes with trial and error and failures and learnings and lessons and something that I had learned throughout, you know, our exploration was how important it was for me to be the first person that you talk to about, wanting to, you know, sleep with someone else instead of them first. So, like, if he was going to meet someone out before, he even says to the other person, like, hey, I'm interested in, like, taking things a little bit further, that I would be that first person that he's like.

F: That's a good tip.

C: Yeah, I would definitely recommend that. for sure.

M: Yeah.

F: Yeah. Because then, like, you expect your partner to say yes, and I mean that. Not exactly, but, like, a similar thing has happened to me, which, like, I'm really excited about this person, and I'm just assuming my partner will be fine. And then it's like, yeah, if he isn, I'm fine, then I have to kind of backtrack with the other person.

C: Right. And then also, like, it makes the other person look like the bad guy writes like, oh, well, I,

F: Yeah, I can't do. Because this person said no.

C: Yeah, this other person might been excited already. And now I'm coming in and being like, actually, no. And so you kind of feel like, you know, you don't want to be that person. You don't want to let people down in that way. You don't want to be, like, not cool, but it's important to set that boundary. so, yeah, that was a. That was a learning lesson along the.

J: Way, for sure, for both of us.

C: Yeah.

J: Because I feel like as much as we had thought we were knowledgeable, and we were like, how important is, like, explicit communication and these practices, the things that aren't immediately clear, like when you enter this space is like, oh, well, yeah, we're a couple and we were doing things together. But when you connect with someone else and it's romantic, even if you know, like, hey, this isn't going to become a new person I'm having a relationship with, you don't expect the other person to just be like, oh, well, you're a couple. I'm just going to come along with this. Like, you still connect with them. You want them to feel that natural connection as well. Like, they're not just like a shape of a human. That's, like, fitting our need to try things together. That was what I had a hard time with because I'm like, oh, I want these things to come naturally. And so I'm going to connect with people how I naturally do. But when you think back on, like, the lessons we'd learned going to workshops and reading books together, like, I didn't make that connection in that moment where I was like, no, before I even expect something could happen with this person. I need to say that is. And it's very hard to, like, keep a mental inventory of everyone you're connecting with. And, like, who might I be interested? Where could a conversation with someone turn into, like, a potential sexual partner that we could share together?

C: Yeah.

F: Ah, yeah. That actually, you guys are touching in a very interesting topic that I've thought about, like, because, I mean, even though I haven't, again, I haven't explored with a primary partner in the way that you guys have. I've encountered couples that I'm like, okay, well, I like the guy or I like the girl, but I don't like the other person. And, like, also being a couple who's, like, made the decision of, like, okay, we're only playing together, then, you guys have to find someone that you both like and that that person likes both of you. Right. So, like, how do you deal with that? It is a little restricting because you are going to connect with different people. You are not the same person.

M: Yeah, I actually find that really interesting because as we were talking about before, you guys wanted to do everything together. We're talking about the formula of, like, okay, finding someone who's attracted, like, the attractive part of it. But also it's like the libido side of, like, in that moment, one partner could be, really sexually charged and the other one is not. And that is another Piece of the formula that doesn't allow things to happen. So I actually have been experiencing this recently where my libido isn't as high as my partner. And we recently kind of just talked about like, you if you want to meet up with women or date women outside, I know that thats something that we do want to experience together and we do want to continue that. But Im in a place where I just started a new business and Im like really focused on that and my time and energy is going so much into that that I dont feel like the need or like the draw to that as I used to. And that doesnt mean that its not going to come back. But in the interim, I'm trying to be better about allowing space for my partner to explore what that might mean for him. whether he takes me up on that or not is up to him.

F: At some point after that, you guys were also kind of dating separately, right? So, like, how did that moment from laburnn evolved into, you know, you guys doing your, dating separately?

C: Yeah, I think, what ended up happening is we realized like, actually how hard it was to find people with all these filters, right. Of like, we both have to be attracted to them. They need to be attracted to both of us. so it just ended up becoming a smaller pool because of that.

F: And just curious, was it, women couples?

C: And that was the other part is we had explored with some couples, but it had mostly been with other women, which I was open to. But I was also like, I kind of want some guys. It's, I mean, I'm sure you guys have experienced this. It's kind of harder to find men that are more open to sleeping with other men versus girls sleeping with other. Or women sleeping with other women. so for me, I had felt like a little dry in that area where I was like, I can't seem to find another guy to do this with us. And I just felt like more one sided, you know? After Loveurn, the pandemic hit and we had decided, okay, let's close things off because you there's a virus going around. We can't really be like making out everyone.

J: And we were also. Yeah, I think we both were going through other things that took precedent in our lives. Right. Like, I was laid off. She had quit her job right before the pandemic. We were both feeling a bit devoid of that. But like, I think it's important to kind of backtrack to answer the question. Like before Loveburnn, kind of the summer before was when we first started to explore that space of doing things separately, and it was kind of like while one of us is traveling. There were, like two instances in particular where I, for the first time had, like, connected with someone, like, when she wasn't there. We had started to do that, but Cookie had not explored in that space as much as I did, I think at that point. And I think it started to, like, I sense now that it created a bit of imbalance of like, well, I want to do this too. And like, how is that going to work? You know? And then, we never got to that space until this past year, when you had introduced. So like back in 2021, when you had brought up wanting to see other people and not have it be something we were doing together after a period of taking a pause from being open.

F: And how long had you been together, at, that point. And were you guys living together yet?

C: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we had been together for three years at that point we were living together.

J: Cookie had gone to Miami. I think that we both were sensing just challenges of Covid and cohabitating and also, like, recognizing codependent patterns that had been forming. I think also the weight of a lot of the challenges for me, like, losing my job, being between full time positions for like over a year, the weight of that put a lot of pressure on her to be like, I need to be there for him. But also, like, I'm in my mid-20s and there's a lot I don't know about myself. And she came back from this, and before she left, I remember saying, look, I know we're not open right now, but, like, if you meet someone and you have a connection, like, that's totally fine. And you were like, no, that's not gonna happen. And then you came back and you were like, yeah, so, like, I met someone and like, we made out and I was like, kind of, you know, a little, like, natural, like, like, oh. And then you were like, and they live in New York and I kind of want to see them, without you. And I was like, okay. So then we kind of started and then we started exploring that and I don't know if you want to talk about what that was like for you.

C: I want to touch on communication and, like, how our relationships started and how, communicative we were and how well we were at that. And then throughout the course of our relationship, we kind of, started to just feel like we knew each other so much that we kind of stopped communicating in certain ways. I Think that was one point to it. I think that the imbalance that had come out of, some of our experiences of, like, you. We had more women coming in when we were doing things together. It was hard for me to find people that I were attracted to that were okay with me being in an open relationship. I was struggling, trying to find my own way and trying to find people that I can enjoy and explore with. And I think I did experience, like, a competitive side to myself where I was not being completely, authentic to, like, what we had started out as, like, know wanting to be open. I think I had built, a lot of resentment up. And I think partially that decision was out of, like, spite or out of, like, well, if we want to be open or if you want to be open, let's just do it.

J: I think it's worth noting, like, my reaction to Cookie's like requests. Like, I acted very much out of, like, jealousy and competition, because I was like, for me personally, I was just like, wait, I've been going through this really hard thing, like, and I was making it about me. I'm like, I don't feel like I like I'm like, we stopped doing this because we're going through a hard time, and now suddenly I have to catch up to where she is. I don't feel ready for that. Right. But then I did it.

C: Yeah. And I think also I had felt like the double standard there really hard when I had brought up that I wanted to see this other guy and try to explore this. Finally I felt like I was ready to do that. And then you weren't. And then for me, it had felt like, well, there were other times that you wanted this and I didn't, and I did it anyways. And again, that's, you know, where I was accommodating and I should have spoken up. And that was, no, not your fault by any means. but I was, like, so resentful for that reaction because I was like, I did all this stuff for you, and you won't do it for me. And in hindsight, that's not a very good way to view it. But I had felt like I had asked for this thing that I rarely ever asked for, and I thought that you had wanted. And then you had this reaction where I was like, I'm so confused. Like, do you want this or not? I felt like I didn't get the same freedom and space reciprocated. And I think that might have been in my head.

I, think it's interesting being in an open relationship and communicating. We both are on the same page here. You can still feel shame. It's so interesting where you're like, I know this is okay with my partner right now, but I still feel guilty about it. And I think that also kind of flooded my experience, and I couldn't just shake that for whatever reason. And I think that guided a lot of my decisions.

F: And so that's how you were feeling with the guy you met in Miami?

C: Yeah, I was like, I'm attracted to him. I feel like I want to try this out, but at the same time, I feel like I'm only doing it because at that point, I. I think at one point during the relationship, I realized I actually didn't want to be open. And there was a point where I was just doing it for Jerry and I wasn't honoring myself, but I didn't want to let him go or I felt like I couldn't speak up and say that's what I wanted because I knew he wanted to be open and I was going to lose him if I said something. So to your point, at the beginning of this conversation about accommodating likeself, I found myself doing that. And, you know, it's a two way street. It's like I reflect and say to myself, yeah, I probably could have spoken up, and I didn't. And that was a learning lesson for me.

F: And when do you feel like you realize you didn't want to be open anymore?

C: I wa wantna say it was like, honestly, that love burn experience. And that might have just been because it was a bad experience, like, you know, where I had to say no twice, and I was like, I don't want to keep doing this work.

F: Right. But nothing happened with that person. But just the fact that you had to, like, push and that he really wanted it just made you realize, like, okay. Wearing two different.

C: Yeah, I think there's just some wear and tear. I think it was like a slow, slow build up of under the carpet kind of situation. I thought was gonna go away. I was like, there's gonna be a time where I'm gonna want this, and it's gonna like, it'll fall into place and, like, we'll keep working at it. And I was just like, I think worn out. I just got tired. Yeah. So I think it was something that was inside me that I didn't really know how to read. because I was denying it, because I was like, well, I said I was interested in this. Like, I made this decision, like, holding Pride in that. I was like, I can't go back on that. Like, I said, I was doing this for whatever reason.

M: And now does this mean, like, our relationship isn't. Is a failure in a way?

C: Ye. Exactly. So that's kind of what my thinking was, probably.

J: Yeah. And the things, you know, like, hindsight gives you so much clarity on a lot of things. So we wound up spending the night, at a hotel last night, because we were talking about, like, having this interview and talking, and we were like, we should probably, like, give ourselves some time to, like, really kind of just talk through some things and, like, reflect on that.

M: I love that.

J: And it's like, something I felt like we deserved. Right. Like, the whole break, like, we've been so loving and amicable, and, like, a lot of people have seen us and been like, what's going on? You guys look really great right now.

F: And I'm like, yeah, we're in a break. Love.

J: More in love, but, like, one thing we've talked about a bit has been, like, how with the person at Love Burn in 2020, I think it highlighted that Cookie was always a bit more drawn to the physical side of this and never. Whereas I think I connect very easily with people on an emotional level. And I think one thing we talked about yesterday was, like, why was that so upsetting? And I think it was the first time she really was in a space and saw me connect so quickly and so deeply with someone else. And thinking about the period when we did start dating other people separately, like, she was witnessing that, too, with people that she hadn't met. And I don't think, please correct me if I'm wrong, like, the one person you dated, it seemed very physical. And the times when we would, unpack what had happened after the dates, I kind of sensed frustration with you. You were like, yeah, I was trying to talk to this guy about all these cool things, and he was just kind of like a bit of a bro. And it didn't, you know, there'that contrast. Right. Where it's like, the competitive and comparison aspect of, like, what's your partner doing and what are they getting out of this? Can't help but fuel some of the things you're going through as well, you know?

C: Yeah. I also think, like, as well as we communicated, I think we just, you know, did a lot, and pushed ourselves in a lot of ways, and, I'm super grateful for that. But I think in hindsight, where our heads were under the water and we didn't really come up for air. And I think also the pandemic was a huge part of it. This break that we're having isn't just from being open and's so many other things. I don't know if this is a place to like, give advice, but something that I learned is like, making sure that you come up for air and not getting caught up in things.

F: Definitely the place to do advice. De place to give advice.

C: yeah, just if you feel like you need that, err, don't be afraid to speak up. If your partner wants to be with you, they'll listen. And if they prioritize that, you know, over you, then that's when you know or you can have a further conversation about it. Just like, don't be afraid to ask for what you want. And like, if that means upsetting your partner, so be it. just always honor yourself. What happened to me because I wasn't, you know, speaking up and I was accommodating. I had become disconnected for myself and therefore from other people. And, I m so glad I learned that lesson. But yeah, just like, not having that fear of like, letting someone down. I think it's also about people pleasing, you know, like, you tend to be a people pleaser, like be sensitive to this, you know, catch yourself.

F: Can we like, talk about the conversation you guys had? Because not only did you decide that you didn't want to be open, you also decided that, you wanted to move out. so yeah, how did that, decision come about?

C: there was a boundary that Jerry had broke. Basically, he read my diary and I was actually going outside to talk to him about all the feelings that I had been feeling about all the things I wrote down, which was like, I'm unhappy and I don't know what to do because I love you so much and I want this to work, but I don't know what I need. I went outside and he was like, I need to tell you something. And I was like, okay. And he said, I write your diary. And I was like, oh, my God. Because I know what I had written in there, which was, basically the stuff I was about to tell him. So in my mind, I was like, oh, that's like, so cosmic. I was about to go talk to him about what was in that diary. And he told me before, right when I was about to tell him that, that he read it. And I was like, I broke down and we were talking about it. He was like, I read it because I felt like you were pulling away. And I I couldn't connect with you or, like, I felt distance. And I just wanted to know. I know I shouldn't have done it, but I did it. And he was like, can we try a couples therapy? And I was like, yeah, I would regret not trying everything you. So that was really our decision doing that. We were in therapy when it came up, and I had just broken down crying, and just was like, I need to move out. I need space for myself. I've been feeling this way for quite a while, like over a year. And this is really hard because I love you so much. And I really, really want this to work, but I don't know if it can without me filling my cup. Right now, I feel like my cup is not full with things that I need to fill it with. And, yeah, I just kind of, like, couldn't repress it anymore. Like, I had been trying to make it work and trying to figure out solutions for so long, but I had something in my gut that was saying, I think what you actually need is to be on your own. And I didn't want to listen to that. I was waking up and having panic attacks, and I was like, it's because I'm repressing this and I'm not talking about it. And so my body just, like, was like, nope, you're saying it, like, you have no control over this. So, we kind of just took our sessions from there to figure out the next steps in terms of moving out and, like, logistics.

J: We kept continued therapy, like, even though we knew that was kind of the point. But for me, like, yeah, reading Cookie's diary, it wasn't something I sought out. I think I was, like, sitting and I was, like, feeling bad about applying for jobs and just like, having get through a, last round interview. And then they ghosted me and I was just, like, feeling really shitty and worthless. And then, like, realizing that Cookie was not talking to me in the way, and I, like, looked over and it was right there, right? And's there's no excuse. Like, it was a violation of her trust. And like, just in that moment of weakness, I was like, reading through it and I'm like, we used to talk about these things after, the Miami trip when she came back and started seeing this guy. I was noticing, I think, what a lot of people in open relationships noticed when their partners with someone else who was like, well, there's already been such a dramatic reduction in, like, how we connect. And I was just seeing how she was connecting with this other person and trying to be, like, comperssive and, like, excited for her that she was having this, like, new relationship energy with someone. and it just got to a breaking point, and I told her what I had done. She said something that now, in hindsight, very clearly was signaling, like, what was to come later where she was like, I just want to be a slut. I don't want to feel responsible for anyone. And it kind of made me appreciate how she had been carrying kind of, like, me through this hard time in our relationship where we were both struggling, but, like, just made me very aware of, like, the mood that I was casting with, like, going through this difficult moment. I think I was projecting a sense of, like, Jerry is in a fragile state, and he maybe can't handle what I'm going through and communicating that because it feels so unstable. And so I knew something that was really important for me to do for you was to say, like, I'm gonna be okay.

F: I was gonna say, like, I think a lot of the, difficulties also came because you guys were not in a good place, like, both in your relationship, but also just in yourselves. Right. And, that's always something that I like to put out there. Like, if you are not feeling good either about yourself or about your relationship, like, opening up is not going to fix it. It's just going to complicate things further.

J: It's like adding a baby to a relationship to fix it. Know, like, no, be put your, you know, oxygen mask on first before you.

C: Exactly.

J: But. So we were kind of in this place where I was like, look, let's just take a break, and then you don't have to feel responsible for communicating with me. It was very clear that she just wanted to not have to worry about, like, me, because she needed to. To worry about herself. And I feel like from that moment, maybe not, like, instantly, but very soon, the tone of everything shifted so much to this kind of bittersweet moment where was, like, some of the best weeks and months of our relationship came towards that end period, you know, which is hard to think about. Right. Because it's like, was it only because we knew this chapter was coming towards an end, or was it because we had gone through this hard thing and really, like, addressed a lot of the things that we had talked about? so now we've been in this phase of kind of, like, individually exploring and really leaning into our own lives where we could say, like, who are we? You know, who is Cookie and Jerry?

C: I think also what happened was I had mentioned we had started out our relationship being very communicative and then direct the course. We were starting to make assumptions. We got more comfortable. We stopped having some of those conversations as often. And then this moment in time kind of like broke that and we kind of got back to being vulnerable again and talking about hard things. Because at that point we just had to

F: Yeah, also like having broken that seal of like the feelings that you had bottled up for like a year, like you felt like you couldn't be yourself. And all of a sudden it's like, okay, everything's out. I can be myself again.

C: Yeah. I like found my voice again and it felt really good. And I was like, I wish I had done this earlier. I just wanted to be in a state where I didn't have to tell someone where I was. I didn't want to have to communicate. Like, I wanted to be selfish and see what that looked like for me and like how that built me up and my identity caus I had realized personally for me that I had some people pleasing tendencies and even being aware of that being in a relationship, I just needed to be on my own to really flesh that out and figure out how to make decisions for myself. Because I still would consider him. Even though he was like, you don't have to. I was like, I can't help myself so I need to just give myself that space.

M: M. Yeah.

J: Yeah.

M: And are you guys currently dating anyone else or are you exploring?

C: Yeah, I mean I'm definitely exploring sexually. Like I'm not looking to be in a relationship, but if I see someone that's hot and I want to flirt with them and talk to them or make out with them, yeah, I'm going to do that because that's definitely a part of this journey.

J: Yeah, things are good now, but they. I think we both have like kind of a fear of like. Well, what about when Cookie does meet someone that maybe like she doesn't want to just hook up with and like wants to spend time and vice versa. Right. Like, I don't think either of us can really even think about that next person. Like if that's gonna happen or when. But it's like, it's terrifying to me. but that's a bridge we'cross, like if we ever do.

M: Well, I have to say that I am super inspired by your guys story and especially the decision that you came to to take a break and especially that that doesn't need to mean that there's something wrong here or it's just allow you love Cookie so much that you want to allow that freedom and space and then allow the chips to fall where they may and where they're supposed to fall, where it feels comfortable for both of you or, you know, whatever may happen.

C: I think it's very clear to me that we love each other very genuinely in the way of when you love someone, you let them go. Right. It's not possessive. your reaction to me asking for this space, like, you know, even the other week, you thanked me for saying that, and, like, that meant so much for me that he was able to be like, thank you for telling me this thing that I didn't even want to hear, or, like, I didn't know that I needed to hear. like, telling me how proud he was of me for speaking up, like, supporting me, even though it ended up hurting him or it's hurting him. It's like, I'm so thankful to have that kind of love where it's like, I want you to be happy. And, like, maybe that doesn't include me right now, but if you're happy, like, that's amazing, and I want that for you. I think we both are on the same page of trusting that when you are living out your most genuine self, that you draw in the people that are supposed to be around you. And I just really am trusting this process. Like, even though it has only been not even a couple months, like, I'm already feeling better. I'm feeling like. You know, last night when we stayed in the hotel together, I was so excited to, like, hang out with you and spend time with you. Whereas, you know, before, when we were going through the break, like, I didn't want to be around him that much, you know, and it's, like, so much more. It's just nice to know and see, even in the small amount of time that we've been doing this work that, because we both are taking it seriously, it just. It's really nice to feel that we're doing the work.

F: Yeah. And I think a lot of it has to do with attachment and kind of that independence that you were craving that you couldn't have when you guys were living together. I mean, I'm sure you've heard, like, Esther Perel talking about this, right? Like, how it's important for. In order for you to desire your partner, there needs to be some separation. And it's great that Cookie was able to take that step. And I think that's what allowed you guys to gain that separation that is now making you closer together. But it's an interesting phenomenon that I've seen. When you break up with someone, then you all of a sudden start having all those feelings because then you miss them. And maybe all you needed is like separation and that idea of independence. Even if you're in a relationship with like non attachment independence, all of those values that important, it's hard to keep up in a relationship, but that are like the key to prolonged desire and the key to, really building a truthful connection in which both people are feeling true to themselves. And it's interesting because even though you guys are, know, calling what you are doing a break, you are still seeing each other. So I mean, not that you shouldn't call it that way or anything, but other people could just say we're still together, we're just more independent now.

M: I think that another point that you made that really made it seem like a break to me is the fact that you don't have to report to each other and let each other know what you're doing or all of that. I think that that is a really big defining factor of it being like a break rather than just being more independent.

J: Right. I mean, we haven't really talked about this because I think it's uncomfortable and I don't want to push cookie boundaries on this. But it's like, you know, we mentioned before, like, we are both exploring like romantically and sexually. And I think I don't want to get in another relationship. Like, I want to focus on my relationship with myself, like for the foreseeable future. And I think some of that is, maybe naively, like, wanting to keep space for like, if we could get back together. and I'm working on that because I don't think that is like the best approach. But I do think it's important to after time of not feeling like you were being true to yourself, like, just be free, you know, whether that means be slutty or like just have platonic relationships or just like invest in your passions and not feeling like, responsible for another person in that process.

F: Yeah, no, and I totally agree. Actually. I think that Mariah had a really good point with that. But it's also interesting to think. I guess I'm like, also thinking of my relationship with Seth. Obviously we live together. Obviously it's not at all like the relationship you guys have at this very moment. And I do tell Seth when I go and meet someone and I do tell him who that person is, but besides that, I don't really share any of that. So I feel like I have that independence that maybe you were lacking a little bit in your relationship. And I'm not saying this is how everyone should be, like that's what works for us. But I feel like it is possible to maintain that separation and independence while you are in a relationship. Obviously it's different because it's not like I can do whatever I want and it's not like I can do what I want without having to check in with someone else. Which is kind of like what you are saying that you were craving and you are getting. And that's great. I'm just trying to point out that there's ways of building that separation, whether that's moving apart and still having a primary type of relationship. So I'm happy to hear that you guys are in a place that feels comfortable at the moment and that you are trying to stay present and not have too many expectations around what's going to happen.

C: Yeah, yeah.

M: And that shows that how different relationships can be too. Because I think that I resonate a lot with your guys relationship and that like attachment style, that you guys were experiencing. When we were in the car the other day, and Seth was dropping us off from the airport and we were just like talking about Love Burn and we were talking about like the week to come and then you were, we ended up talking about Fresh Meat which is an event that we're going to be going to this week probably.

F: When this Podcast airs.

M: Yeah.

F: Oh yeah, that will be there as you listen to this.

M: And you. I had brought it up like, yeah, we're thinking about going on Wednesday.

F: It's a poly mixer.

M: Yeah, yeah. And we're thinking about going. And then Fer's like, oh yeah, I'm going to this thing by the way.

F: Oh yeah, yeah.

M: So it just like to me, I was just like, whoa. The fact that you guys didn't even establish that until that moment, that was something you had already decided. And you're going like, for me, that's a very different style of like communication and separation or independence in your relationship. But I also very much admire.

F: Yeah, it's super unique. It's like I make my own decisions and I go and let's say know what I want to do, what my intention is, but that whole process is on my own and it has it good and it's bad things, you know. Like the good part is that I feel very free. I can decide to go to this poly mixer. I mean this is different because I'm not. Well, maybe I don't know unless, I mean, if I plan to meet up with someone afterwards or whatever, I will. As said beforehand, I'm mostly going to this to promote polycurious and just to chat with friends. I'm not going there to flirt. So it's a little different. There are some decisions that I do need to check in with him first before I make them. Anyhow, just saying that the good part is that I can make my own decisions. and it's really freeing and it's really nice to have that independence. On the other hand, because we don't talk about what goes on in my sexual and romantic life outside of a relationship, besides just letting him know I'm seeing this person at this time, then it can feel a little isolating, like, oh, I have all these things going on and I cannot share this with my partner. But I feel like it's a trade off. And, I'm comfortable with it because it makes things a lot easier because he truly does not want to hear. And I think that that's something that I've learned with time and I'm more comfortable with it. But it can also be alienating or feel alienating sometimes just, you know, thoughts about different types of doing.

C: And it's like the word trade off. It's like, what is your. Everyone's trade offs are gonna be different. Like, everyone's compromises look different because people are different and everyone's needs are different. And it's, you know, it, can be a very fun thing to explore together and talk about. And in like a bonding experience, it's just finding and discovering what your trade offs are. And like, I think that comes with knowing yourself. And I think, you know, tying back to my story is I don't know myself. And so maybe I don't know my trade offs yet. And I think that is kind of a part of maybe what's going on.

F: You've already, shared so much withis them. But what do you tell to a, polycurious person?

C: Well, if I'd say, continue to, you know, do what you're doing right now, like listening to this podcast, you know, talking to people that are doing it, doing your research, and also along the way, when or if you start exploring in this area, to remember to, you know, honor who you are, don't people, please, if you feel like you're gonna let someone else down, what you're really doing is letting yourself down. I love that I heard this quote the other day, when you Ah, show other people that you put them first. The only thing that you're teaching them is that your second.

J: I, think just take time to appreciate all of the norms and labels and practices that like come from being curious about something that is now really widely talked about. And you know, especially when you live in a place like New York City, youre going to have a very different experience exploring all of the spaces of open relationships, like play parties and things like this. Then if you live in a place like Portland, Maine. Right. And so don't get caught up in what's on the surface and what you see people doing and how you think about that. Remember that this is a very personal thing and it's not like your'poly or your're open or your're monogamous. It's like you are a person and you're trying something out and there's these new terms and concepts and ideas and literature, but it's still just like people trying to do their best. Relationships are hard enough, you know, like be patient, be kind and know that like you can go down a path and you can come back and like, life is not a fixed thing. So like you can always just keep going in those up and down roller coaster, like whatever direction you want to go and that's okay.

F: Amazing. Thank you guys so much. It was great.

M: This was such a lovely conversation and so insight, especially where I'm at right now. So thank you.

C: Thank you guys. This is an amazing initiative that you're doing and to all the listeners out there, spread the word.

F: That's it for today's episode. Please, if you haven't yet subscribed to. So we have a lot of great guests lined up for this season and if you want to follow us on Instagram, we are @PolycuriousPodcast. You can also write to us polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com thank you so much for listening and see you all next week.