Safi: We're not taught to look at, especially with the act of sex, of, like, this is a shared experience. This can be good with one person, and it also can be good with you. You know, we're not trained in society to look at love and sex in that way as this abundant kind of experience. So my, like, knee jerk, especially the, like, toxic masculinity that is, like, constantly around me is like, it better not be better. And then, like, when I really, like, go to the core of who I am to, like, authenticity of who I am, it's like, I sure as fuck better be good. Like, you know, I hope that it's good with this other part. I don't want her hurt or sad or, like, feeling empty or like, any of those things after an interaction. But, like, it is such a reflex to be like, if, like, she's gonna find something better than someone else.

Fernanda: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fernanda. And, um, today is the second part of our conversation with Safi and Fifi So if you haven't listened to the first part yet, just please go back and listen to it first. In the first part, we talk about their individual journeys and their upbringing. And in this second part, we focus more on their relationship. Safi and Fifi are a polyamorous couple. They have, uh, a YouTube channel where they share their experience and tips for other couples. And we talk about it a little bit in today's episode, but if you haven't checked it out yet, I highly recommend it. Before we start, I just want to clarify that both the previous episode and the second part were recorded back in August 2020. So things have changed since. One of them being that Safi came out as transgender. So just note that he's no longer using the pronoun she her, even though we use them in this episode. Back when we talked, they had been together for two and a half years, so I guess now they're probably past three year mark. Uh, and in this episode they tell us how they met. They share some of the challenges that they encountered and how they dealt with them. So you'll find great tips whether you are in a monogamous relationship or in a non-monogamous one. We talk about compersion which is when you feel happy because you're partner is happy with someone else. And we also talk about why at that point, living together wasn't really something that Safi and Fifi desired despite really being committed to one another. And overall, it was just such a fun conversation. They are just really great Humans. And I hope that you enjoy it as much as they did.

S: We met. So we met at. We were mutual friends or we had mutual friends. And we met, I guess at a play party. A, ah, queer play party called Submit. Um, we had.

Fifi: We like to say it was love at first.

S: Fuck, yes.

F: Because it was really the first encounter we ever actually honestly had. I had known of Safi like she said, had mutual friends. I was intrigued, but I didn't want to get too close. I was like, uh, I don't really want toa. You know, I just didn't. I didn't know her well. And then when I found out that our friends were organizing this group trip to this play party and that Safi was on the list of people going, I was like, uh, a word.

F: Okay, I'm never going exactly. Like, I'm going. I'm, um, about a bag. Like, this is my chance. Like, I'm going to. You finally. Yes. I've had my eye on her for a while, but that'll be the night. And, um, she wasn't gonna go because one of her exes were gonna be there. Two my exes were there, two of her exes were there.

Fer: Well, perfect timing.

F: Exactly. And I was like, who cares? Like, just come fuck me in public, please. And, um, it didn't take too much convincing.

S: No, it was after, like, I was performing poetry and I was like, I'm not going to this. This is crazy. Like, too many of my exes are there. And she came to my show, um, and like, bought one of my cigarettes and was like, you should come. And I was like, you know what? You bring up a really good point.

F: We get to the party, um, I'm still not sure if Safi is aware that I want to have sex with her.

S: Yeah, I have this problem with being, like, very deadpan, like, seeming a little bit like, generally disinterested in most things, you know?

F: Yeah. So I had to explicitly ask the question while we were like, walking and she was behind me and we had. It was like a row of our friends that were all walking in the same direction. And I just, uh, asked, who wants to make me come? And she was directly behind me. So luckily she said, me.

S: No, I just looked her around. Anyone? Anyone.

Mariah: Hand you up on a platter?

F: And then it worked out really well and I had a fabulous time. And I was like, hm, Hmm. I Want to fuck you again. And we started doing that. And, um, so it was very casual.

S: Yeah, we were like solo poly relationship anarchists. We both got out of like, intense version like, of primary partnerships. So we took it really slow. Like, we kind of like, parked it on sleepovers and just like, being cautious of not like, totally being a mesh in this like, new relationship energy of like, uh, it's so exciting in toa spend all my time with you. And, um, at around like six months of us, like, doing the things that we were doing, I asked her to be my primary and she said, I've been telling people you were my primary. So. So, yeah, it was definitely love at first. Fuck. I don't think. I did not anticipate that night going the way it did. I did not. I actually knew of Safi uh like six years prior. And I was like, this is one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen. And I had like, a creepy eye on her.

F: Um, but she didn't know. And she was also after you, but you didn't believe it.

F: But. So that was good. And I mean, this is also a plug for like, fucking early on. I'm you advocate for that. Cause I'm just like. I knew. I don't know. I definitely knew that there was chemistry. And then, um, because of the sex, like, it was just like very synchronized. So I thought, okay, great. Now we can actually, perhaps actually be the same way emotionally and like, with our personalities. And, um. I'm glad. Yeah, it worked out.

M: Yeah, I agree. I love that too. Like, fucking early. Like, I think that I was not definitely not brought up to be that way. And like, I think that's still something I'm learning now. And like's. It's funny actually dating in this world. I feel like I had to still even even had to portray as like, this innocent, you know, whatever.

S: Um.

F: Um.

M: But yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

F: Is like when you, you know, you know, like to know whether there's a connection or not.

M: Right, Right. And not having to, like, play coy because you feel like, oh, I don't want to give it up just yet.

F: Or like, oh, my God, I was so bad at that.

S: We have been together for a little bit over two and a half years now, which is crazy to say out loud.

F: I, um, think so.

S: Ye.

F: Yeah. I mean, also in retrospect, because I do plan to spend the rest of my life with Safi There's a lot left ahead. So you. So much learning and growing to do, but it just feels so seamless here. And we currently don't live together. Um, Safi lives in Bay Ridge and I live in the Bronx. So it's technically like a long distance relationship. That's what I know. Yeah.

S: Distance Relationship. Right.

F: I really dream of the day when I can walk to Safi's apartment. At this stage in our relationship, living apart works well.

M: So um, yeah, I'm curious about that. So even using I dream the day you can walk to each other's apart So like do you guys not plan on living together in the near future at all or like ever?

S: I don't know if it's. I think again like relationships are subject to change, but the way we like practice the way we're kind of very different about our spaces in general. And um, I think we were just.

F: Bicker too much about like the design of the space.

S: We wouldn't be. She wouldn't care very much about the design of this space and I would not. And then we would bicker. Yeah, but it's not just about that. I think we're just very. It was hard for me to like. I remember talking to someone and they were like, so you guys are gonna like, you're madly in love. You love each other so much, you love spending time together. I assume the next step is moving in. And I didn't. And then I felt in that moment like briefly invalidated. I was like, oh, so I have to. It's not ah, a real primary partnership if I'm not living with my partner. Like if there's not a material evidence, then this is my primary. Um, but then like very much letting that go and not like totally making it something that I never want but just like right now it makes the most sense that we live separately. Right?

F: Yeah. I think ideally we went to Costa Rica on a trip and we'like we can have a vacation house together that we live in at the same time but like during the week, especially weekdays because we both work and we're both cranky. Like the separate space works well.

Fer: Yeah, I guess. We also wanted to ask you guys about um, your boundaries because that's different depending on their relationship. Not all non-monogamous relationships are the same. So what type of boundaries have you guys figured out?

S: Um, I think baseline is honesty, like transparency, communication. Um, and I think we've done a lot of different. Like we've had like growing pains for sure. And like in terms of like polyamory itself in the way we practice. I didn't realize that I was a kind of partner that likes not to be involved like romantically or sexually, but likes to know my metamours And I think the most of the the like things we would come up against is like me not knowing a metamour well enough or me not knowing a metamour yet and feeling kind of like threatened or challenge, like in the feelings of like insecurity and jealousy. I think like, jealousy has been a thing that like an obstacle that we've gotten over. Um, and. And yeah, that was really something I didn't know about myself. I was very much because my first nominonymous relationship was of like the don't ask, don't tell variety. I wasn't and very don't ask, don tell. Not even like knowing of anything that my partner was doing. Um, and I also got the text of like, you should probably get tested. Right? Um, from my ex at the time. But I think the kitchen table, like knowing my metamors, I don't have to like see them all the time or be such so ash in their lives. But I do like the abundance of love and the community of loving somebody more than like a parallel dynamic.

F: M. Yeah. And it was my first coming from all the learning I had of uh, polyamory was as a solo poly person, as a relationship anarchist. Like, I was always a secondary to someone. I was never anyone. Well, I always forget that you like.

S: Totally forget about relationship that you had.

F: Like primary partnership that I have with someone. Oh, God bless. So that's not true at all because I did have that framework. So I think the difference here is I do feel very comfortable bringing up like if I do want to explore other people. And I think even as a person whos practiced poly for a while now, theres still some embarrassment about that. And like, know theres still like this feeling of like uh, this person. I think I wanted go on a date with somebody. So, um, learning to become more comfortable with that and creating a dynamic in the relationship where that doesnt have to happen. So I learned that about myself in this relationship is that as open as I am, I still have some fear around like how to approach that with my partners. And the instinct is still there to like the cheater in me, the one who's operated that way for so many years, is like, this can't possibly be talked about. Like, I can't possibly bring up that I want to see other people. So, um, just making sure that that's something that's welcomed and celebrated and instead of so that I can feel more comfortable sharing that.

S: And I think it also helps that Fifi had like a plethora of other partners as I was entering into her life. So like had it been a dynamic. It might have been more difficult if I was like her. We were like monogamous or even like started off as her primary and she then started seeing other people. Even if we had the like polyamorous. Polyamorous paradigm in plays but coming in. And that comes a lot from like, I don't see my metamorss or like her secondaries as like secondary to me. Um, I think that like paying my respects to her other partners has been and taking a lot of my ego out or that starting that way took a lot of my ego out of like, I uh, was with her first. She is mine. You know, it really like kind of paved a way of being able to like. Like no one's really actually produced some awkwardness because if I don't get clear instructions on certain things on like the way I should be acting, then I'm like, all huh?

F: Right.

S: That's her partner. I just won't. Like they're kissing right now. Do I just stand here? Do I like, o. Can I just talk to like, I don't know what to do because I always give like too much leeway or not too much, but like, I'm so cautious of like stepping on toes that I sometimes find myself in weird scenarios.

F: And I'm like, no, you can absolutely be like, hey, this looks great, but I'm gonna go do something else ye or anything like that. Yeah. And I think this is in romance in general and relationships across the board when if there's a difficult thing that comes up communicating that and not sitting in the tension of it for too long. Because we actually recorded a, uh, video recently on how Safi yelling improved our relationship. And it's because, yes, she operates in this way with if there's no clear instruction, like not sure what to do.

S: Like, and now it's more like, hey, tell me what the fuck to do, please.

F: Like communicating ever way it get shouting.

F: And for me also, like, you know, yeah, I grew up in a loud household. So like, yo, please like, yes, I can hear you properly. Like, okay, registered like. So, um, after implementing that kind of way of communicating, if things are bothering us, then it helps just clear the air sooner rather than later.

S: It helps a laugh too. Like that kind of like, it helps to not take ourselves so seriously in the moment. Like when you're sitting in this broody resentment, you start to like, the narrative starts of like, she's going to leave me for somebody else. And like, when the way I've experienced jealousy is that I become distant. I become I, like, make the story is now true. She has left me already, even though, like, she's fully in this relationship with me, and I have to start behaving and, like, my life. I need to start imagining my life without her. You. It gets very dramatic. Um, because. And that's from not talking about it and not, like, putting it into, like, manifesting it in this conversation. Being able to be like, hey, babe, I feel this way about this partner. I'm feeling insecure right now. I need reassurance. Um, or I just need a conversation about it. Cause sometimes you're not going to hear what you want to hear and also accepting that. But, um, sitting in the resentment is really what starts to peel away at the relationship. At least for, I think, most relationships. Yeah.

F: Yeah, absolutely. And for me, like, it brings up so many old behaviors for me because as the person, at least in our dynamic, I have the other partners. I'm usually the one that goes on dates. I'm the one usually who's having sex with other people. So if I feel like there's a resentment brewing and I'm not getting that information, I'm gonna. I'm gonna shut off, too. And it's gonna be a thing where, you know what?

Fer: And you're gonna start feeling guilty.

F: Exactly.

Fer: Because even though you haven't heard from him, you, like, you know. You know that there's some hurt feelings or something going on by the way he's acting or.

F: Absolutely. Yeah. The guilt is, uh, where it all stems from. So I'm like, if you think, if you have a problem with this, then I'll just leave. So that's where the thinking will, like, go down.

S: And then on my end, it's like, if you want to leave, then m. Just fucking leave. You know, it's like, it's such a spiral that can be so easily avoided with vulnerability. Even if the feeling is uncomfortable, even if it's gonna be, like, a messy conversation, that not talking and us creating these stories back and forth ends in this, like, well, then fucking leave. Like, um. And it's just not. It's not how in toa talk or think about any of my partners. And this way of, like, you know.

F: Because that's obviously not what I want. And, um. But I think, like, that's the hard boundary, you know, if we're not talking about BDSM and, like, what are my red, green, yellows, then that's it when it comes to, like, open relationships and polyamory. For sure.

S: Yeah.

Fer: Yeah. So you found that when you've like opened up. Her response has been because you, you said like, it's not always what you want to hear, but it always helps. Right?

S: It always helps to know that like, you know, like struggling with information, like how much do I want to know and how much, how much do I want to know? To make me feel a little bit more comfortable in like the relationship she has with this other person and how much do I not want to know? Um, typically I actually want to know more that I want to know less. But you know, like, it's dealing with a part, a muscle that's not been worked of, uh, like letting go of ego competition, like all these things because we're not taught to look at, especially with specifically the act of sex, of like, this is a shared experience, this can be good with one person and it also can be good with you. You know, we're not trained in society to look at love and sex in that way as this abundant kind of experience. So my knee jerk, especially the toxic masculinity that is constantly around me is like, it better not be better. You know? And then like, when I really like go to the core of who I am, the like, authenticity of who I am, it's like, I sure as fuck better be good. I hope that it's good with this other part. I don't wanta hurt or sad or like feeling empty or like any of those things after an interaction. But like, it is such a reflex to be like, like she's gonna find something better in someone else.

F: Yeah. And it's so interesting because even though you might have been in the situation in which you have strong feelings for two people. Mhm. And you can totally see when you're in that situation very clearly that that doesn't distract from the other person. The fact that you like or love one person doesn't, uh, mean that you don't love another one.

Fer: Right. But then when you are on the other side and then the other person is with others, your mind immediately goes to, I'm lacking something, that person is better. There's as hierarchy when in reality it doesn't work like that, you know?

F: Right. Yeah. I feel fortunate that I have rarely felt that. I think like with my partners, I don't know, I get so excited when my partners have other people in their lives. Um, and maybe this is like my confidence in myself sexually, like having had sex since 13, like, and knowing that it's like a power of mine or something. Like, you go have your fun, you'll be back, it's fine. Um, so it's.

S: Yeah.

F: Maybe that's why I am, like, polyamorous. And I just really feel like. I don't know. And also, sex is so different with different people. Like, I think more than anything, what makes this work. Like, the sex was first, and the sex was incredible. And that's what led to everything we have now. But what really made it stick is our personalities and our chemistry and how we operate.

Fer: Um, it's training for anyone listening, in case you hadn't noticed. Yeah, there's not much we can do about that.

S: So.

F: Sorry, guys.

F: But yeah, so it's. It's that. That really makes it work. And I don't know. I'd be very surprised if you can find this anywhere else. What? Like what I do? What I do?

S: I was just thinking. I don't know. Y. I'm here.

Fer: Yeah. Just talking about the, uh, confidence in a, uh, relationship and how that is necessary. Not to say that jealousy isn't ever present, but I mentioned this. It's compersion Right now. This is actually compersion Yeah.

M: Can you explain what that is for. People who m. Might.

F: The. What is it?

S: So it's kind of like the opposite of jealousy, where you experience joy and feeling, like, elated when your partner is, uh, enjoying another person or excited. It's just, like, very much. Yeah. The opposite of feeling envy or jealousy. Yeah.

M: Oh, my God. There's. I gotta tell you a little story. We were. Logan and I were at the sex party, and I had this. I have. I have this huge crush on this guy that we probably all know. But, uh. And, uh, we were playing around. We were having sex. So, like, you know, all these great, juicy things. And then at the end of the night, we ended up spending the night and I ended up cuddling with another guy. And Logan and this big crush. I have ended up falling asleep holding hand. And Logan's completely straight, but they fell asleep holding hands, and I freaking died. Like, I know.

Fer: O. Yeah, she told me next day. Like, uh, you know, that thing. That was the thing that happened at the park. Ye. Not. Whatever else happened before after that, that was like, the thing she had to tell me about because it.

M: Because it was. I think it was also the first time we really experienced compersion And, like, he was just full. I mean, both of us were kind of just fully embodying it. And, you know, it is kind of difficult to get to that situation where you feel that comfortable. But when. When it does, it's such a magical feeling, um, to be able to, um, you know, just experience Thate.

F: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'm a little embarrassed that my. The way I led into compersion was with like a very egotistical description of how I'm a sex goddess. But that's really. That was what I meant. I actually meant that compersion is like something I feel like I was born with that. And that's why, like, I wish I had known that polyamory was an option. Um, but you know what? I'm actually really glad that I learned about it in my 20s. Like, I cause enough damage. I learned from those mistakes so I didn't have to make them in polyamory. Uh, because those same mistakes can happen in open non-monogamous monogamous scenarios where, you know, people are irresponsible and lie and cheat. Like, that's totally still, like, can happen. Um, so I'm glad I was able to like, keep those two worlds separate.

S: And even as someone who experiences jealousy, like, compersion is very. And I said it like in a joking way, but like, the cuckkold in me is very. And it's not even like I have to be there, I have to be watching it. But like knowing that it happened and having the details and like, when I felt jealousy, I was like, oh, this must mean I'm not polyamorous. And it was like a very specific scenario. It was a very. It was before I learned that there are these. What I really want is to fall asleep holding hands from met.

M: Right.

S: And the only times I feel jealousy is I feel that a metamour is very separate from me. Um, but that is like the wet dream. It's so like, whatever. You get dicked down by some nice man and then we fall asleep together.

F: And that's the thing that was one of the most surprising things that I learned, uh, when learning about non-monogamy was that actually meeting your partner partners makes, uh, you less jealous because absoutely, everyone would think that it makes you more jealous, but it actually, at least from the people I've talked to, you know, it becomes less mysterious, it becomes less threatening because you know, that person, you know that person has good intentions. That person knows you. So there's some sort of acknowledgement. So it actually helps with jealousy. And that's what I tried to tell Seth as well. I'm like this good help if you just met them, you know.

S: Yeah, there is like a level of like one of, uh, our first experiences of like being entangled with another partner and not in like a sexual scenario was with one of our partners. And we went On a date, the three of us or I met them after. So it was very much his time with her. And I didn't feel like what do I do? Blah, blah. Like it was just like us interacting, us like doting and like loving her and yeah, it was just very simple. Um, and it's just camaraderie. It's like. Yeah, it is a really good.

Fer: Yeah. Because if that person had a connection with Fifi and you also have a connection, you are going to have some things in common.

S: Yeah, I wrote a poem about him actually. Wow, that is compersion

M: It's like straight up.

F: Oh, I want to, I want to hear that poem with me.

S: Yeah, that's awesome.

M: Well, yeah, I mean I do want to touch on it a little bit too. Is. I know that you guys, I mean we've been talking about it all night, but you guys have an incredible YouTube channel where you're sharing all these incredible and very specific topics and kind of bite sized pieces for people who are also curious. I feel like I think you're targeting kind of the same audience. So how did that come to be and why did you create that?

S: Quarantine very much was helpful to like the creative. I think it was something we talked about but we didn't have like uh, like uh, enough of a vision for like what we actually need to do for it to look a certain way. But it was always something like I want to do something like educational with you regarding sex and lifestyle, whether it's creating a podcast, creating. And then we were talking to our friends and they were like, you should make an Instagram and start a YouTube channel. And literally the day after we were making an Instagram, um, and starting a. YouTube channel and it was like no background or like knowledge or I don't know, I don't even know anyone personally until like I started discovering people that I knew, mutual friends that had YouTube channels. And I'm like, okay, people I know do this. Like it's possible. And um, so we just like made the account and started it. And we had known that we wanted to provide some representation for people like us, queer, um, people of color that are also polyamorse or curious or curious or just like. Exactly. Um, and we thought we're too fucking niche not to do something about this. So um, and we have so much to talk about. So it, it was very easy. Like the videos just keep coming. So many subjects. And also as we continue to create content, people um, engage and seem really interested. It took on the like, it Started to become more sex positive oriented. Like uh, unbeknownst to us, I think. I think once we hacienda reached out to us it started to kind of um, become this really talking about sex education and a more like accessible humor, like levity, bringing like a little bit of the ways I would have wanted to be talked to about these things. Like casual joking around and like not in this like very intimidating and not in like a finger pointing way either. Like you're doing something wrong if you're not doing this yet, you or like don't understand this yet. Um, so it like really came at least for me. Like the driving force was like who did I need to be talking to when I was like dating people for a longountut of time and then breaking up with the minute I had like feelings for someone else like before I kind of caused a lot of damage. Like what could have, could I have heard, you know, moving forward?

F: Well that's exactly what this podcast is about. So I think this is a great segue into our last question which is what would you say to a polycurious person? So what would you say to that uh, past self of yours when you know you were experiencing these things and you didn't know about this world?

F: Mhm.

F: Or just to someone who's curious right now after you've experienced all that you have experienced and learned from?

F: Yeah, I guess for me, um, it'really the shame and the guilt, like that is the thread of my past life is really feeling that I was a bad person for wanting to be with multiple people. And so dismantling that which takes work and owning your desires and whatever propels you. Um, so that's the first thing is you're not wrong for wanting those things. You're not disgusting for wanting those things. And in fact you can celebrate that you want those things. And there's a safe, ethical, honest way of doing it. Um, so if I had gotten that news when I was a teenager, then you know, maybe I would have hearrd a lot less people. So when I did hear that for the first time and hear that slut could be um, a reclaimed word that I could use.

F: Right. We should probably reference to this book actually.

F: The Ethical Slut is um, is like the book that taught me about poly also just slut. Like a lot of influencers and celebrities like Amber Rose, you know, the just ending sl shame across the board. And stop using terms like that to police women's bodies.

S: Sorry, like slut shaming. Like never. Even when I was younger. Didn't compute for me. I was like, why? I don't get it. It doesn't really make sense. Anyway.

F: Uh, yeah, so anyway, at least for me and for my younger self, that's what I would have said. It's like, just be kind to yourself and do some research. Read this book.

F: Yeah, Go the Ethical Slut by.

S: I don't know, by.ie Easton. Do.

Fer: Nice. We'll put it in the show notes. M for you guys. Um, yeah, that's great. How about you? Safi

S: I would say, I guess on the other end. Yeah, no, like, definitely. There's no shame in wanting other partners. And there's also, like, no shame in being uncomfortable with. If you're first experimenting with polyamory and feelings, like we said, jealousy, discomfort. It's awkward sometimes. It's weird that that shouldn't be the driving force to deter someone from going forth and experimenting more. Um, and that it's, like, normal to feel those feelings, those kind of negative, icky emotions and any kind of relationship paradigm. So. And I would also say, like, building a community and like, having people to talk to about, like, polyamorous things, like issues that come up. Like, truly, like, clearly we're not the only ones, you know? So, yeah, I think I would tell that to myself and anyone else practicing or newly practicing.

Fer: I love it. I love both your messages. So thank you so much. Honestly, I've had such a great time.

S: Yeah, this was fun.

Fer: Was really fun. Uh, we're definitely having you. Again, thank you guys so much for coming. Your show. Yay.

M: Love you guys.

Fer: Well, there you have it. Safi and Fifi. How incredible are they? Please, if you like what you heard in today's episode and the previous one, give them some love by subscribing to their YouTube channel, which is linked in the show notes. Or you can just type Safi amp Fifi in YouTube and it will come up. You can also follow them on Instagram, uh, Safi and Fifi. And you can follow us as well at Polycurious Podcast If you like the show, please don't forget to subscribe. And if you feel like reaching out to say hi, our email is polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com. okay, guys, that's it for me. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you all next week.